Sweet 16 Question

[Intermediate]

OP, I had the same reaction as Don S. I couldn't tell what you meant by "indexing my Basic Strategy" given you said you hadn't even started to count. Not sure what you are doing with Sweet 16 indexes if you haven't started to count and haven't mastered Basic Strategy. I hope you are not learning Basic Strategy only for the player/dealer combinations of the Sweet 16. You have to learn BS for all Player total, Dealer up card combinations before learning anything else. The indexes are the True Counts (you might have a misunderstanding of what that is too) at which you deviate from Basic Strategy. Learn Basic Strategy until you can do it in your sleep, and then start learning to count. Assuming you pick Hi-Lo or other balanced count, master the Running Count. Then learn deck estimation and how to convert the Running Count to a True Count. Then learn how to vary your bet based on the True Count, and then learn the indices and how to deviate from Bsic Strategy when the True Count reaches the index.

Basic Strategy for insurance is "never take insurance". You only can get an advantage taking insurance when the TC >=3, so people say, if you're not counting, don't take insurance. I can see how you may have interpreted this to mean the gain is minimal. In fact it's a bad bet if you're not counting, but if you are counting, there is much to be gained by making the bet above the right True Count.

[Night_Rider]

OP, I had the same reaction as Don S. I couldn't tell what you meant by "indexing my Basic Strategy" given you said you hadn't even started to count. Not sure what you are doing with Sweet 16 indexes if you haven't started to count and haven't mastered Basic Strategy. I hope you are not learning Basic Strategy only for the player/dealer combinations of the Sweet 16. You have to learn BS for all Player total, Dealer up card combinations before learning anything else. The indexes are the True Counts (you might have a misunderstanding of what that is too) at which you deviate from Basic Strategy. Learn Basic Strategy until you can do it in your sleep, and then start learning to count. Assuming you pick Hi-Lo or other balanced count, master the Running Count. Then learn deck estimation and how to convert the Running Count to a True Count. Then learn how to vary your bet based on the True Count, and then learn the indices and how to deviate from Bsic Strategy when the True Count reaches the index.

Basic Strategy for insurance is "never take insurance". You only can get an advantage taking insurance when the TC >=3, so people say, if you're not counting, don't take insurance. I can see how you may have interpreted this to mean the gain is minimal. In fact it's a bad bet if you're not counting, but if you are counting, there is much to be gained by making the bet above the right True Count.

Intermediate: This is EXACTLY what I have been attempting to do... I don't know why no one seems to understand that. I have explained myself several times and still everyone seems confused. Even you, in your post, say "You have learn BS for all Player total, Dealer up card combinations before learning anything else." Well, that is EXACTLY what I have been doing and it seems everyone has a problem with that. I am attempting to do EXACTLY as you say.... to "Learn Basic Strategy until you can do it in your sleep, and then start learning to count." Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been doing and EXACTLY what I have been saying in my post. I just don't understand what the problem is other than the 'experts' seem unable to comprehend what I say.

Night_Rider

[Intermediate]

OP, the problem is you refer to learning the Sweet 16 indexes, and yet you say you haven't started counting cards. Indexes are irrelevant if you haven't counted a card. What do you think you would do with the indexes if you haven't leaned to count? That's why the conversation seems bizarre. That's like trying to understand a Finite Element Analysis without learning the mechanics of solids first.

I recommend you pick up "Professional Blackjack" by Stanford Wong. It has a very structured discussion of Basic Strategy and Card Counting, and other advanced plays, so I think it helps beginners see how this stuff all fits together. Understanding how all of this fits together is a big challenge for beginners, especially when you can access bits/pieces over the internet without a framework. I would consider PBJ, along with BJA v3 one of the must reads, if not one of the bibles. BJA is probably better after you've got some mileage in at the tables. Modern Blackjack (available at this site) is one of the better contemporary books. I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions, since some of the books we all have on our shelves are getting a bit out dated given how the game has evolved. The two books you mentioned are in that category. Thorpe's is a must read for understanding the historical context, as are those by Ken Uston and Ian Anderson but you have to be pretty seasoned to know what advice is still applicable to today's game.

Don't be defensive about being a beginner, but make sure you have some thick skin. Those qualities will serve you well should you advance in this endeavor. Get that Basic Strategy down, get a bankroll together ( and that's a whole subject by itself) and get your feet wet by finding a $5 table, if not a $2 or $3 table, and play a little. You will accelerate your learning curve by getting some time at the tables, and hopefully you won't go broke while doing so.....

[Night_Rider]

Tthree, Exoter175, and Intermediat: I appreciate your posts and I feel compelled to reply. I will try to keep it short so as not to bore anyone.

In Don's first Post he said, "Let me chide you on not looking at insurance decisions yet! Insurance is the single most important of all the indices. Why in the world would you place it last instead of first in your studies? Make no sense at all."

In Don's second Post he said, "And, again the legitimate question is - What complexity are you talking about? You are putting off taking insurance in multi-deck when TC is +3 or higher for what reason, exactly? You are learning indices, but this one is too tough for you??? You understand your not making a lot of sense don't you?"

So I tried to explain where I got the info and why I was doing what I was doing but seems no one gave a crap. At least it seems to me as though my post were either not read or disregarded.

I am asked "if I understand that I am not making a lot of sense," and "your learning indices, but this one is too hard for you???"

Well, no its not too hard - I JUST HAVE NOT GOTTEN TO THAT POINT YET! And it makes perfect sense to me. Maybe not to Don but it does to me. I am doing what the two books I have said to do. Both of the books I have read, so far, have indicated that insurance is not all that important. I get it that times have changed and this may not be the right advice - but up until I posted to this forum that is what I was told / learned from the material I had. And why doesn't it make sense to learn indexing BEFORE learning to count cards? What is so difficult about this concept to understand? I am memorizing the decision points for the Sweet Sixteen. I am trying to prepare myself for when I do start actually counting - so that I know the index before starting to play. Tthree, at what point did you start memorizing indices? Before or after learning to count? And does it really matter as long as it is learned? Again, most of the material I have seen says to learn basic strategy etc. etc. BEFORE starting to count. And they don't include insurance at this point because in the material, I have, insurance is not part of basic strategy... it is given as a "player option." And I think, (now I'm going out on a limb here) that most of the BJ study material, out there, is structured the same.

So, after being told I don't make much sense etc. and being chided for doing what some books (written by experts) told me to do I am feeling a little defensive. It seems to me that most of the replies I got were from those that were just rubber stamping what ever Don said and did not ever consider what I said in my long, boring replies. I think some of the other posters even accused me of 'not knowing what an index is' etc. Well, no I am not an expert but I DID read about Indexing at least twice (before making my first post) and I do/did know the what, where, and why. Its just they assumed that I didn't know about them. Again, not an expert but certainly not completely void of any knowledge at all!

Here are some dumb questions.... Don says that insurance is the single most important decision in BJ - so does this mean I am supposed to study insurance first and worry about basic strategy later? Does this really make all that much sense due to the fact that probably 80% of play is NOT insurance but basic strategy (altered with indices of course)? If YOU had to learn one but not the other would your choice be insurance over basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just insurance and no basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just basic strategy and no insurance?

So anyway I apologize for getting defensive but after being told I don't make much sense and that everything I have been doing was questioned... well I got a little defensive - a little insulted too. I realize Don's credentials - but how long has he been at it? Thirty years? Me - I've only been at it a few weeks. Don't expect me to match wits with someone that has been at it for 30 years. Yes, maybe I don't make sense sometimes but that doesn't mean I am incapable of learning... it means I don't have Don's 30 years of experience.

Night_Rider

[Three]

Tthree, at what point did you start memorizing indices? Before or after learning to count?

I learned it all at once. I knew it would take many months to really be ready and that each step would take a while and have a daily saturation point. When I got to the point of less productive study I switched to a different part of the training. Until I learned what worked for making things stick in my brain memorization was very difficult for me. I rarely memorized anything for school but rather understood everything. I memorized one trig formula and during a test I would derive the others I needed and still be the first to finish. I just knew that certain relationships existed and confirmed what the nitty-gritty of the trig equations were during the test. I tried the flash card route but it wasn't what worked for me. Memorizing number strings for each hand matchup made memorization a snap for me. Then with repetitive usage they became memorized individually. The more useless ones were slowest to memorize because they were used so infrequently. I would usually have to go back to the number string.

And does it really matter as long as it is learned?

It doesn't matter what order you learn things in. Everyone is different and what works for 1 person may not work at all for another. One person may be ready in weeks while another takes months or even closer to a year.

And they don't include insurance at this point because in the material, I have, insurance is not part of basic strategy... it is given as a "player option."

Basic Strategy is to never take insurance.

So, after being told I don't make much sense etc. and being chided for doing what some books (written by experts) told me to do I am feeling a little defensive.

There is no need to defend yourself. Learn from the posts if someone gives bad advice someone else will challenge it. Ask follow up questions if you don't understand. You talked about a mentor relationship. A mentor is always looking for a top student. The feedback in the forum is not revealing the most sensitive stuff as casino personnel also visit the forum. A mentor looks for a good listener that shows a high degree of comprehension and asks good follow up questions. You show that kind of ability and someone may decide to contact you and do a more personal mentoring. Networking is an important part of success. Being asked to have a closer relationship than on the forum gets you in a network and can lead to more knowledge than you would ever get here.

The responses ribber stamped Don because he was right. If he was wrong or someone believed he was wrong they would have posted such a response.

Here are some dumb questions.... Don says that insurance is the single most important decision in BJ - so does this mean I am supposed to study insurance first and worry about basic strategy later? Does this really make all that much sense due to the fact that probably 80% of play is NOT insurance but basic strategy (altered with indices of course)? If YOU had to learn one but not the other would your choice be insurance over basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just insurance and no basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just basic strategy and no insurance?

Now,see these are not intelligent follow up questions. They are defensive and hopefully sarcastic. Not exactly starting out well to attract a off the boards contact. Insurance is in the Sweet 16 as the first and most important index play. It is not the Illustrious 18 as splitting TT is omitted for heat averse reasons even though these rarely used indices are quite profitable over time.

[Skull]

Tthree, Exoter175, and Intermediat: I appreciate your posts and I feel compelled to reply. I will try to keep it short so as not to bore anyone.

In Don's first Post he said, "Let me chide you on not looking at insurance decisions yet! Insurance is the single most important of all the indices. Why in the world would you place it last instead of first in your studies? Make no sense at all."

In Don's second Post he said, "And, again the legitimate question is - What complexity are you talking about? You are putting off taking insurance in multi-deck when TC is +3 or higher for what reason, exactly? You are learning indices, but this one is too tough for you??? You understand your not making a lot of sense don't you?"

So I tried to explain where I got the info and why I was doing what I was doing but seems no one gave a crap. At least it seems to me as though my post were either not read or disregarded.

I am asked "if I understand that I am not making a lot of sense," and "your learning indices, but this one is too hard for you???"

Well, no its not too hard - I JUST HAVE NOT GOTTEN TO THAT POINT YET! And it makes perfect sense to me. Maybe not to Don but it does to me. I am doing what the two books I have said to do. Both of the books I have read, so far, have indicated that insurance is not all that important. I get it that times have changed and this may not be the right advice - but up until I posted to this forum that is what I was told / learned from the material I had. And why doesn't it make sense to learn indexing BEFORE learning to count cards? What is so difficult about this concept to understand? I am memorizing the decision points for the Sweet Sixteen. I am trying to prepare myself for when I do start actually counting - so that I know the index before starting to play. Tthree, at what point did you start memorizing indices? Before or after learning to count? And does it really matter as long as it is learned? Again, most of the material I have seen says to learn basic strategy etc. etc. BEFORE starting to count. And they don't include insurance at this point because in the material, I have, insurance is not part of basic strategy... it is given as a "player option." And I think, (now I'm going out on a limb here) that most of the BJ study material, out there, is structured the same.

So, after being told I don't make much sense etc. and being chided for doing what some books (written by experts) told me to do I am feeling a little defensive. It seems to me that most of the replies I got were from those that were just rubber stamping what ever Don said and did not ever consider what I said in my long, boring replies. I think some of the other posters even accused me of 'not knowing what an index is' etc. Well, no I am not an expert but I DID read about Indexing at least twice (before making my first post) and I do/did know the what, where, and why. Its just they assumed that I didn't know about them. Again, not an expert but certainly not completely void of any knowledge at all!

Here are some dumb questions.... Don says that insurance is the single most important decision in BJ - so does this mean I am supposed to study insurance first and worry about basic strategy later? Does this really make all that much sense due to the fact that probably 80% of play is NOT insurance but basic strategy (altered with indices of course)? If YOU had to learn one but not the other would your choice be insurance over basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just insurance and no basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just basic strategy and no insurance?

So anyway I apologize for getting defensive but after being told I don't make much sense and that everything I have been doing was questioned... well I got a little defensive - a little insulted too. I realize Don's credentials - but how long has he been at it? Thirty years? Me - I've only been at it a few weeks. Don't expect me to match wits with someone that has been at it for 30 years. Yes, maybe I don't make sense sometimes but that doesn't mean I am incapable of learning... it means I don't have Don's 30 years of experience.

Night_Rider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL8e2ujXe8g&feature=kp

[Night_Rider]

Tthree and others: Thanks for the reply posts. Since I am working toward using the HI/Lo Strategy I will get Stanford Wong's book as you have suggested. I will also incorporate insurance into my studies promptly. I have been using an evaluation copy of Norm's software, for the Flash Card Drills, for a few days now. I have it configured for the Hi/Lo Strategy and the Sweet 16 Index and I have been using random counts in the drills. I switch back and fourth between using 'hands with indexes and default hands.' This is because I find it helpful, to concentrate only on the index plays sometimes, in my effort to commit the plays and indices to memory. I have been looking for a place in the set-up and option screens of the software for insurance. But I am not able to locate them. According to my understanding there are three insurance decisions in the Sweet Sixteen, but I am not seeing any insurance decisions come up. Maybe I am confused here and if anyone can help me get the right settings I would appreciate it. Perhaps the insurance decisions only come up during simulated game play? Please... additional information is needed here. If there is something in this post that does not make sense.... please ask. I will attempt to clarify.

Thanks

Night_Rider

[DSchles]

NOTHING in your post makes any sense! We keep telling you that, since you don't know the first thing about counting and haven't begun to learn to do it yet, using -- or even mentioning -- index numbers makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

Memorizing index numbers before you can count is like saying you're going to take up reading but you don't know the alphabet yet.

Don

[Three]

But I am not able to locate them. According to my understanding there are three insurance decisions in the Sweet Sixteen, but I am not seeing any insurance decisions come up.

You are confused. there is one index for insurance for each count. It is the only linear thing in the game as each non-ten value card has the same effect of removal. Sorry, I am sure you don't understand that term yet.

Memorizing index numbers before you can count is like saying you're going to take up reading but you don't know the alphabet yet.

You can memorize the indices any time but you won't be able to use them until you can count.
You need to learn basic strategy so you know how to play hands when no index is exceeded to change the play.
You need to learn to count so you can vary your bets with the changing advantage and use the indices.
You need to learn the indices.

You can play without knowing the indices and using basic strategy and varying your bets with the count. You give up about 1/3rd of your potential gain at shoe games and about 2/3rds of the potential gain at single deck or double deck unless of course you manage to get away with a huge spread at the latter. But you can't use the indices if you can't count. There is nothing stopping you from learning them at any time though. If memorization is tough for you starting early isn't a bad idea. The order I listed above is the logical progression but it need not be you learn BS then you learn counting then you learn indices. You are best of not playing until you have them all down cold. I suggest using geometric shapes in the colorized Basic Strategy charts to help learn BS. BS is pretty logical other than maybe the soft doubles. You have dealer stiff upcards 2-6 which you generally play for the dealer busting and 7-A which you need to make a hand. Hard doubles are pretty logical. Splits are pretty logical. Surrender is only a few plays that are the worst matchups you can get. Assuming the dealer has a T in the hole makes BS pretty routine except for a few exceptions.

The way I look at it it takes you X days to learn BS, Y days to learn to count and Z days to learn the indices. These variables are different for everyone. If you study BS until you have it down, then counting until you have it down and then indices until you have it down it will take X+Y+Z days. If you study more than one thing a day by switching when you need a break to keep your time the most productive you will shave some days off that time. Why wouldn't you want to do that?

[Exoter175]

Tthree and others: Thanks for the reply posts. Since I am working toward using the HI/Lo Strategy I will get Stanford Wong's book as you have suggested. I will also incorporate insurance into my studies promptly. I have been using an evaluation copy of Norm's software, for the Flash Card Drills, for a few days now. I have it configured for the Hi/Lo Strategy and the Sweet 16 Index and I have been using random counts in the drills. I switch back and fourth between using 'hands with indexes and default hands.' This is because I find it helpful, to concentrate only on the index plays sometimes, in my effort to commit the plays and indices to memory. I have been looking for a place in the set-up and option screens of the software for insurance. But I am not able to locate them. According to my understanding there are three insurance decisions in the Sweet Sixteen, but I am not seeing any insurance decisions come up. Maybe I am confused here and if anyone can help me get the right settings I would appreciate it. Perhaps the insurance decisions only come up during simulated game play? Please... additional information is needed here. If there is something in this post that does not make sense.... please ask. I will attempt to clarify.

Thanks

Night_Rider

In all honesty, I'd probably set this up in segments. You seem pretty motivated to learn, you probably just need proper guidance and an outlet for questions, which this forum is great at, but I feel that you might not learn as quickly doing it "all at once" like we'd all want to.

I"d break it down like this:

Segment 1: Learn Basic Strategy to a 99% accuracy for 1/2/4/6/8 deck games
Segment 2: Learn a counting system (you mentioned Hi/Lo, but might be missing finer points of the counting process)
Segment 3: Learn a betting spread, when to apply it vs. TC, decide on how large a spread works for you based on practice and sim models, and practice comfort in a live environment (This is the Segment I'm on right now)
Segment 4: Learn you indices, I18, S16, Insurance calls, etc. Learn them from the most profitable to the least, and from the "hardest" call to the easiest. Drill, Drill, Drill.

I feel after that, you're probably going to be set to hit the tables without much restraint, though I must add that you should be playing throughout all segments on small tables to accrue live experience, and you should keep track of your sessions and follow a few of the books on their accounting strategies as well as playing strategies.

Trust me, after a book or two, you won't have questions about TC>=3 insurance calls.

[Night_Rider]

This discussion is positively bizarre. Every single person who has responded to you, including me, understands that you are a card counter who uses indices to make BS departures. You said so yourself in your original post!!! (But, you didn't realize what you were saying!) Now, above, you write: "Also, as both you and the books suggest, insurance should only be used with a requisite count. I have not even started to work on card counting (as suggested by the books that I learn basic strategy first).

So, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you are hopelessly confused! I don't think you have a clue as to what "indexing my basic strategy" means. In fact, I'd venture to say that none of us understands what you intend it to mean either.

You need to reread these posts and understand what is being told to you.

Don

Don, It appears to me that you, and most of the other posters on this forum, are so far ahead of me that you are not capable of understanding someone on a beginner's level. Whether I am hopelessly confused or not could be debated. I am not sure of your understanding but I DO realize what I am saying and I don't understand why you are having such a hard time with it. I realize that I am a beginner and understand that people who are on the 'professional' level sometimes get agitated when they have to deal with someone that they consider stupid or uneducated; someone not on their level. But, the reason I came to the forum was to try and learn something. If this is not the right forum to do that then again I ask you to redirect me to a 'beginner's forum.'

All total I have been trying to learn blackjack for about a month. Excuse me for that, please. I apologize for not being on the 'expert' level, as is everyone else in this forum, after only a month. Perhaps I will never reach that expert level... maybe I'm just too old or dumb to learn. But, I suppose there are those, like you, who learned the whole of BJ in 1/2 hour. This IS typical for internet forums... a hand full of posters who are experts that can't stand dealing with beginners. Perhaps you have forgotten what it is like to be a beginner? Like I said... please redirect me if there is a better place for us beginners.

About a month ago I bought Silberstang's book. I read through that book and started to memorize the basic strategy in that book. In his book Silberstang starts out with basic strategy with no alterations based on count. Then he introduces alterations to this basic strategy based on count. This is later in the book. It is not til about the mid point of the book when he begins to show basic card counting. In the book he stresses learning 'basic strategy' FIRST - with no alterations and no card counting. And suggests getting that basic strategy committed to memory FIRST - before attempting to count cards. In his book the basic strategy has no indices to begin with. Alterations to basic strategy (indexing) is introduced later in the book.

Also, in Thorp's book - the second book I bought, he also suggest learning Basic Strategy first. In fact, if you take a look at page 5 you will see where he writes, "The Basic Strategy does not involve counting cards. However, after mastering the basic strategy, the reader will learn a simple modification, using a card counting system, that identifies situations in which he has an advantage over the casino of more than 3 percent." This is a direct quote - not my paraphrase.

So as stupid as I may seem, this is what I have been doing. Up until about a week ago all I have been trying to do is to commit the 'basic strategy' (with out any indices or alterations) to memory. About a week ago I started looking at altering the basic strategy based on indices - I started to memorize the Sweet 16 Indices.

Also, up to this point I have not counted any cards. I do intend to start counting but, up to this point I have only read through the 'card counting' chapters in the books I have. I know what is involved, based on what I have read, but, in the truest sense I have not counted any cards. I have not dealt out any hands and counted +1 or -2 or anything LIKE that. Nor, have I watched any games and tried to follow the count or anything. I HAVE NOT COUNTED THE FIRST CARD YET. All I have done is to try and commit strategy charts and the Sweet 16 Indices to memory. Now if I am not using the correct terms to describe what I am doing - well, I can't help that.... remember I am a beginner and have only been looking at BJ for about a month. Up to this point I have NEVER played a BJ hand. If I am not using the correct terms to describe what I have been doing then correct me. Constructive criticism I can handle - condescending attitudes I have a problem with. And BTW I do believe I know exactly what "Indexing my basic strategy means." But, if you believe I don't then by all means - explain it to me. That's why I am here in the first place - to learn things I don't know. Isn't that what this forum is for? If not let me know and I will get the H out of here!

Back in the day when I worked I was an Engineering Technician in a Truss Factory. I worked in the Truss Industry for 30 years. I designed literally thousands of sets of trusses for everything from commercial buildings to storage sheds and everything in between. I assure you that if you were to come down to the truss plant and sit with me for a while I can make you look absolutely STUPID! Not that I'm smarter than you... its just I've been doing it for 30 years.

Thanks
Night_Rider

[Three]

There is a free book in the BJ Resources tool bar at the top of the page. It is a great book for growing knowledge from a neophyte level. Stop being defensive and try to educate yourself to the point that you can understand the advice given you by some of the foremost experts in the field before you make them want to not answer your questions in the future.

[Night_Rider]

There is a free book in the BJ Resources tool bar at the top of the page. It is a great book for growing knowledge from a neophyte level. Stop being defensive and try to educate yourself to the point that you can understand the advice given you by some of the foremost experts in the field before you make them want to not answer your questions in the future.

Tthree: I am trying to do just that. But tell me that those experts don't understand what I mean when I say "I have not started to count cards yet" and that they don't understand what I mean when I say "indexing my basic strategy." In fact the previous post by Intermediate pretty much suggest EXACTLY that. I am not trying to be defensive but it is getting difficult considering the condescending attitudes here. I bet you know what I mean when I say I am a beginner, that I have been trying to memorize basic strategy, and that I have not started to count cards yet. And I bet you know what "indexing basic strategy" means too. Or should I say "altering basic strategy based on an index?" I personally fail to see the difference.

I came to this forum to learn by asking questions. If that is not possible here then please tell me and I will leave. I apologize if I don't present my questions in 'expert form.' Remember, I AM A BEGINNER.

Night_Rider